PREFONTAINE

50 miles?!?! Hey, its a guaranteed PR since you've never run the distance before :-)

Jake,

Hi. I just asked Scott W. to comment on the schedule. He has done 50 and 100 milers before. I am running the 50 Mile race because frankly, I am not sure that I can do it - that doubt that I used to have, the anxiety around the marathon distance...don't have that anymore with the marathon. The other reason is tied to the marathon distance itself. Increased mileage I think I read would help with getting a better time for the marathon itself. And for me, these miles are more than I usually run.

I think it will be a great challenge for you. I agree, more endurance from the increased miles will help w/ the marathon as well.

Looks like a fun challenge! Back to back long runs will definitely test your endurance. Like Jake said, the increased mileage will serve you well.

PRE- You can definitely run 50 miles. If you can run 26.2 you can run 50. My only concern with your training plan is you have a long run or multiple long runs every week between 5-13. This might be a little bit too much for you, especially the back to back long runs. This plan could very well work for you and as long as you listen to your body and feel ok you will be fine. For me when I am in peak training I try and run about 45-50 miles per week with one longer (13+) run each week and then I try to do at least one long run (30+ miles) per month. I find that for me this is just about right. I think a lot of it is just trying to find out what works best for you. Good luck! I will be watching and let me know if you have any other questions.

I guess I should clarify something- When I am in peak training my miles are mostly hard mountain miles with a lot of elevation gain, so I don't think the mileage translates to what you're doing exactly. I was usually about 45 miles with about 10K vert per week. That is probably more in line with what you have outlined, although not the back to back long runs.

Scott,

Hi. Thanks for blogging here. You have the same concern I have - the back to back long runs on Sat and Sunday during week 5-13. The schedule is put out by Runner's World. The 24s and 18s...maybe I could see that happening. The Sat 24 and Sunday 30 milers...difficult to comprehend.

The problem...Runner's World does not have the rationale for those back to back runs (other than that you take the day before and the day after the two long runs as off day.

I was entertaining taking the shorter of the weekend long runs and putting them on Tuesday and doing the other Long on Saturday.

I thought whoever developed the schedule put the two longs together so the body could feel what it was like to run 54 miles (or whatever the prescribed distance) in a short period of time.

I have plenty of time to think about this because the first four weeks of the schedule are not that difficult. But, I am in the process of contacting people to run with and penciling them in on the days they will be running with me...to keep me on track. I am not like the other bloggers on this site! They are so consistent and dedicated...It has been a goal of mine to get better with Consistency!

Maybe I'll look for more schedules...or entertain simply doing the longest long and shortening up the other long to 15-18...Working this out as I write.

Regarding my asking you other questions...for sure I'll have more...not now...but refueling would be one...what the heck do you eat when you running for 8-10 hours??? No need to answer that now. I'll research but will probably ask you in a couple months about that one.

Listen...hope you and your family are doing well. Been great talking to you. Talk soon.

Scott, did some more online research and found out about why back to back long runs: here is a piece of that information.

"Find a training plan and take a big bite of that sandwich

I used two training plans I found online to guide my ultramarathon training. One plan was from Runner’s World (16 weeks) and the other was from Hal Higdon (24 weeks). Both are similar in their emphasis of the “sandwich run”—essentially back-to-back long, slowish runs on successive days (building up to runs of 4-5 hours each) that help practice the feeling of running on tired legs. Undoubtedly, you will find yourself running on tired legs during the course of a 50-mile race. The more you can replicate that feeling during training, the better you’ll feel during the race."

I am trying to estimate the time and paces for these training runs.

You and I are approximately on the same fitness level for the longer (20K, half-marathon) distances.

OK, try this, assume a base level of fitness corresponding to a 1:55:00 half-marathon, something both of us have done in the last year with reasonable training (20-30 miles/week).

According to the fitness calculator at http://www.runningforfitness.org, a 50 mile race pace would be about 9:49 pace.

I typically do my recovery runs at that pace. This is a pace where I could more or less talk on the phone and not be out of breath.

At a 10:00/mile pace, a 50 mile run would take about 8:20:00, about eight and one half hours.

The challenge here is learning to run slowly and the strain comes from the long term leg motion repetition and the resulting muscle fatigue.

When I think about it, you may not need 50+ miles per week. You should really be counting hours-of-leg-motion instead of miles. The 10:00/mile pace is pure aerobic, so both you and I have the cardiovascular fitness for it. What is missing is muscle-skeletal endurance, and to build that up, you need to do those long slow runs at the slow pace with a walk-break at regular intervals.

I will be interested in hearing Scott's comments on my comments.

I just think that those back to backs in successive weeks might be too much and you could end up injured. One thing you could do is add a few more miles to your runs during the week and then do a longer (20ish) run on the weekend and then every 3-4 weeks do a really long run like 30 miles. This will allow you to recover and stay healthy. You could also try a really long run (like 35-40) maybe 6 weeks before to test fueling and see how your legs do. When I first started running long distances my legs would really hurt and get sore after about 25 miles, so you really do want to get some running in doing some higher mileage to see how you do and to get stronger. Just plan for a few options and listen to your body. Don't overdo it.

As for fueling, this might be the most important aspect of finishing a long ultra. You really need to find out what works for you and the only way to do that is to practice eating when you run. You need to eat on all of your long runs and find out what will agree with your stomach. For me I usually rely on gels for about the first 20 miles, but after that I start to feel energy deficient and I need to start eating real food. Here are some of the things I love while running long distances:

-Salted potatoes (they should have them at the aid stations

-Cookies

-potato chips

-Peanut butter sandwiches

-Coke

-Chicken soup

All of the ultras I have run have had really good food choices and I usually just eat what sounds good. You need to make sure to take in a lot of calories (around 300 per hour) so you don't bonk.

Also as important as fueling is staying hydrated and taking salt. I take S-Caps and they really work. You need to experiment with that too.

Marc made a good point about miles not being the most important thing. My friends that run ultras all agree that more important than miles is time spent on your feet. Of course you need the miles, but you need to get used to moving on your feet for several hours.

Also, another thing that took me some time to learn. Don't get too comfortable sitting at aid stations. Practice eating while you walk and get into an aid stop, get what you need, grab your food and eat it while you walk. Sitting down is bad!

Hope that helps.

Marc and Scott,

Your comments are very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to write all that.

Scott: I am thinking of running 60 minutes Tues, 90 minutes Wed (tempo), 60 minutes Thursday (half the miles at MP). I want some speed work...and the outline above is not too intense. For the weekend, I am thinking about going with just the longest of the two weekend runs outlined above...losing one of the weekend longs. Plenty of 24 milers there (five) I like the plan of doing 35-40 miles at week ten! Week 12 and 13 in the above schedule has 30 milers...I am thinking that might be a good idea because it is late in the schedule and closer to the race date...so considering not doing a 30 miler every month. I may do 30 at week 7. Do you think that would be a reasonable schedule? Oh and "S caps"...are those "success caps?" I am still doing a lot of online research...there is quite a bit to learn.